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Morrigan's Pit has closed down as of November 2006. The site and its articles will stay online as an archive until September at least, but probably longer.
The Archives
2002-2006
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FORCE OF EVIL
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Hank Shermann
April 2005
http://www.forceofevil.net
This is the last of three interviews I did on a nice early Sunday morning in April, on a press day organized by Theo of Rock Inc. Talking to Lars Ratz and Sabina Classen was already a lot of fun, talking to the wonderful Hank Shermann for almost an hour was even a bit more special. You'll all know this Danish guy from Mercyful Fate and it was the first time for me to talk to him, even though the first time I saw him live was in 1982 when Mercyful Fate played their first Dynamo Club gig! And Hank doesn't mind talking about Mercyful Fate a bit, but the real reason for the interview is the latest Force Of Evil album "Black Empire". An album that blows me away far more than any of the later Mercyful Fate CDs (of course the first few are untouchable). Not in the last place because of singer Martin Steele, who shows a much more versatile and aggressive way of singing than with his other band Ironfire and whose (at times Metal Church-ish) style appeals to me so much more than King Diamond's current style. So even though we take a trip down memory lane here and there and sometimes get sidetracked by website related stuff as well, I decided to leave old Fate stuff to others and ask the very sympathetic Dane more about a band that needs and deserves more exposure: Force Of Evil!
It's nice to have a chance to talk to you after so many years, I believe the first time I saw you live was in 1982 at the Dynamo Club. Nico and I have both seen a lot of the shows at the Dynamo and on festivals...
Holland is where everything started for us. All the good memories and the recording of the mini album and all that...
I also still remember you had to play at a radio show and we went to Hilversum with a whole bus of the Dynamo gang to support you.
Yeah, it was MANY years ago! ;) It's weird to think about time, how long it's been, that's unbelievable. For me, I'm doing exactly the same thing - same type of music, the concept of everything and now I'm in Holland again!
But I don't want to dwell on the past. For me, today, Force Of Evil is more interesting, it does more for me than Mercyful Fate (nowadays) does. But the old stuff are all classics of course, they're untouchable.
It's inevitable that people want to talk about the past when they have the chance to talk to me, that's OK. The old songs were made more on instinct. Now we think too much and King does 50% of the music and you get a bit of a crossover connection to the King Diamond band. But "Don't Break The Oath" and "Melissa" we did on instinct and I think that was part of the success I guess. We believed in it, we didn't even think about what we were doing music wise. If I analyze some of the parts of the music, I'm like "wow this is almost like American pop music", hehe. I would not do stuff like that today, because I'm thinking too much.
Force Of Evil is vocal wise a big difference, I used to love King Diamond when he was still singing with his normal voice and some high parts, these days it's mostly the high voice and it annoys me in the long run.
You either hate or love him, a lot of my friends say "ok we really like the music, but we can't stand the vocals." At least it's his trademark and no one in the world sounds like him. But I can fully understand it. With high-pitched it's also about the quality of the tone. You have Geoff Tate and Rob Halford that do it really nice and smooth when King's more like... going through your ear... you think "oh my god!" haha! (laughter) But it's very much his own style.
It's good to be a unique voice. How old is King now, btw?
He's from '56, so he'll be 49 in June.
Yeah it's good to be in your 40's ;)
And he's still capable of pulling off the old songs. And if you think of the Rolling Stones back then or Judas Priest, with Tipton being 56, Downing is 53, and Halford.. that's really impressive. It takes a lot of energy to perform that type of music so King at least has that argument going for him ;)
When we were younger, all the bands were still young too, because the whole thing was fairly new. And now, growing older, many bands are not around anymore, but some are still there. Now it's people in their 40's and 50's still performing and that's something that didn't exist in metal back then.
What impresses me most is that the most fulfilling bands are still the 80's bands like Iron Maiden, Judas Priest, AC/DC, I mean, they rule today, no one of the new ones comes even close to them.
Isn't that also because there are so many bands now? You have to share your fame with a lot of people.
But it's funny that no one has gone up to the level these bands are on. Of course there are some, Slayer, Metallica, but despite that...
(laughter about Metallica) I believe they are the example of how not to become (some joking around about Danes). But let's move on to Force Of Evil, before our time is up, we haven't discussed anything yet!
We could lock the door! ;)
I already liked the first album, but it didn't really knock me down like "Black Empire" does, I was very impressed when I put that one in the player, the whole production is very powerful, so first of all congratulations on the album! How are the reactions so far?
Thank you. So far, the reviews I've seen and my friends, they are impressed, esp. with Martin, he got so confident, doing so much more, trying new things and taking it to a next level. It's not pressure, but he knows he's playing with old rats, hehe, so that motivates him to do things he would never do with Ironfire, that's more the German powermetal thing. So that's a big difference, also showing the deep voices, death voices and high-pitched, that impresses everyone. I also like the mix and production, for the first time we wanted a producer mixing the album, then we got in touch with Neil Kernon, he was interested, heard the demo tapes and really liked it. The hard thing was to send all the tapes and digital files to him in Chicago and let him do it by himself. That was a good thing, because having musicians around producers is really bad you know, hehehe! That was something we wanted to get away from, because we're not talented enough to do that, it takes more...
Who produced the first album?
The first Force Of Evil album? An ex-guitar player of Mercyful Fate, not many know this, called Terry Brickman, his real name is Carsten Falklind. We went to his studio and recorded there, he did it together with us. He did a good job and he gave us a lot of studio time for free ;) We used the instruments as they were, but on the second one, Neil Kernon took all the drums and sampled them up, as I can hear, to get more power. So that's kind of cheating with the drums but I think that was needed, it really suited the band and in order to stay out of the 80's kind of sound, you need a more modern sound to compete with all the others. You have all these new techniques today, others are using it, so we are using it as well. And we still like it, I mean, normally I can't stand these trigger drums, it's so fucking perfect, I like the live feeling more. Everyone was proud of it, because we didn't do it ourselves, we have a different relationship with it. We kinda had to like it, Neil Kernon did it in two weeks and he gave the product back, it gives a completely different angle to it. Now we're just enjoying it so much more.
I like most of the songs better than on the first album, did something change in the way you wrote the songs?
Nah, not really. The only thing that changed was maybe me, I put a little more aggression in and also one thing we did on "Black Empire", we D-tuned the guitars, it's what we call a drop-D, meaning that the 6th strings is getting one step down. That also changes the way you compose, because you have to place your fingers differently, so that probably contributed to the composing of the songs. If it was in a real tuning the riff would have been a little different. The songs are a bit more connected on the new album, on the first we had a ballad, different vibes, we were trying to find our style and Martin as well with his voice, so there is more unity on the second one. You'll always have the musician think that the album you are doing is the best. Always. But when I hear the first one I feel "wow it's not bad at all", it's a bit more old school sound, I like that though.
But the second one is more powerful, and not just because of the production, the songs as well, and of course Martin...
Exactly. It's locking in more, different styles, trying different things, there's a little Deep Purple here and a little AC/DC there, now we feel like this is the way.
Martin was your first choice, I believe, when you were looking for a singer?
The only, yeah. We had another guy that really wanted to do it, but he sounded like James Hetfield, he's also doing a Metallica band, and we thought it was not good for us to get a singer that sounds exactly like James Hetfield, that would go nowhere. And Martin had that personality, he sounds like himself. I heard his high-pitched vocals and I liked that. When we got in touch, he was like "wow, Hank Shermann!", he's a big Mercyful Fate fan. When we did "Melissa" and "Don't Break The Oath" he was 3 years old, haha!
Could you have imagined, knowing him from Ironfire, that he would grow into such a versatile and more aggressive singer?
We heard the potential. Michael Denner, myself and Hal, we were analyzing the parts that we liked from Ironfire and we really heard the potential. We were kind of talent-scouting, you know, "this guy can do something, he just doesn't know about it". So we helped him, also with the music, he had to take it out of his Ironfire concept, it's good when a singer gets a challenge. They think so much about the vocals when they compose themselves, they base the riff around the vocals, to me that's extremely boring. Now he has set a level for himself and now he has to stay up there, with all the high-pitched stuff. I also notice when we play live that he got a little more aggressive. On the first CD he's a bit more mellow, soft. There's a progression, so I hope the fans will be pleasantly surprised. And I know about disappointment as a fan, I was a big Judas Priest fan and then I got "British Steel" and I hated it. I learned to kind of like it, then they released "Point Of Entry", I thought, "oh my god, they sound like AC/DC". And also with Kiss and "Dynasty" (sings "I was made for loving you..")... I got so disappointed, I lost my heroes from the early days. So the other way around, if you have let's say Judas Priest or Force Of Evil or Mercyful Fate doing a cover that's even heavier than the one you like and the singer is going even more crazy, than that's a good combination.
Talking about Judas Priest, what do you think of "Angel Of Retribution"?
Actually I got it from a friend, downloaded it ;) As a composer and a big fan I was kind of disappointed, but I didn't know what to expect. The first song I like, good singing, but the riffing, I don't know.., Halford is not doing the high pitched singing. It's simple, I don't know what they were trying to do. Some of the songs are good party songs, but in general I think the songwriting's a bit weak. The only thing that saves it are Halford's vocals, even though they are not in the league that he used to be in. The production is also a little.. I like the production, but it's a bit old-school, it's lacking some aggression.
What I like about the album, I'm not a big Priest fan, what I like the most is the old stuff like "Sad Wings Of Destiny" and I hear more of that style in it, more mid-range vocals, I don't like the high pitched thing all the time, too much technique and not enough emotion. But the opinions are so different, some say it's crap, others love it.
I think they just tried to take something from all the era's, but as a lead guitar player I must say they have done better. Even though there are some nice parts and I don't mean that I'm doing it better hehehe. They are the Godfathers of heavy metal and still leading the way and the back catalogue alone.. they only need two good songs on the new one and then with all the back catalogue songs they can tour for the rest of their lives.
If I have to describe your style, I would say it's a mix of Judas Priest (overall feel), Metal Church (esp. with Martin's voice) and of course Mercyful Fate, because of the guitar work.
I can see that. Of course Mercyful Fate, that's my way of playing and composing, Martin contributing the Metal Church (I've heard the Metal Church comparison before) and of course the overall Priest feeling in the singing and the composing, since I've been a fan, when I started I was really impressed by Tipton's riffing. And because I'm a big (old) Judas Priest fan, I love it when I see reviews that say that the singer sounds almost like Halford, than I'm just being a fan, "oh cool, nice comparison!".
Do you have different goals with Force Of Evil than you have or had with Mercyful Fate?
No, that's a blurry kind of thing about goals, because like when a painter paints a picture, what is the goal with that. I mean you never know, maybe it's an exhibition or a private collector who buys it to hang it in his living room somewhere in the US. One thing... of course you hope to make a living off it, in order to have freedom to concentrate on the music and of course you hope to get, not necessarily famous, but sell enough records in order to tour, making it a business.
But you've had more side-projects..
When you do a project you always think it could have a chance. A goal is to make music with quality in the composing of the songs, that's the main thing and then from there you can only hope it sells in order to make money to be able to keep doing your thing and to see it as a business. Creativity equals money. In the old days, we just played and had fun, didn't care about money, but it should be business, because you put a lot of time and effort in and this is a product that you can put on the market so people can buy it. So you can hope and dream to be successful, to get it to as many people as possible and have them enjoy it and have a good time listening to the music, being part of their lives. Because that is what happened when I started to listen to music. Judas Priest or old Scorpions or whatever were part of my daily life growing up, that's what I still feel when I listen to the old albums. It means so much to me.
Have you been able to live off music?
With Mercyful Fate, when we were doing a lot of touring and doing the records we got some pocket money, on the tours we'd get salary and you sell merchandise, then you have some freedom and save up some money in order to live off the next six months, but to have it continuously it requires bigger sales. It's OK, but we also spend a lot of money on the recording, meaning the record company still needs to recoup and get some money back. But most musicians, when they grow older, get married, have kids, a house, and they don't have the time and passion for the music, but I will still do it, whether I get success or not. Comparing myself to a painter, I'd paint anyway, that's just my creativity. And in the meantime I try to make a business out of it, you need to do that as an artist, most forget that. Artists are not people that are good with numbers, but you have to learn it so you're not getting screwed.
I'm kind of in the middle, I've been creative my whole life, but never one specific thing. I never made a profession out of it. I've always had the conflict of being able to learn and people expecting you to go to university and me wanting to do something creative. It took me a lot of years to come to realize that maybe these things are better of just being hobbies. Although I've always done things that served a purpose, knitting a sweater I could wear, printing a t-shirt and now I make websites because I can support others with it. I never just draw for no reason, but I have my outlets anyway.
Well you have a flair for it, when I took over the Force Of Evil site, I designed it, but I had another guy put it together, and then I had it on my computer and could go in and analyze. I looked in the source code and learned from it, to others it looks like rubbish. Apparently I have a little flair for analyzing it, so I go copy from it.
It's enough to learn from it, and to know where to look if there's a problem.
Yeah I had a problem with my photography site for Macintosh users (and I'm one myself) and my webmaster couldn't help me, so I spent an evening going through the source code and figured it out myself.
One thing I was curious about, on your website you've uploaded cover versions of "Exciter" and "Hurricane" - the "Exciter" song ended up on the Gutrix album I think?
Yes, I'm working on my own website about my musical life and I want everything, not only music files, on it, so for those people who are interested, I uploaded those two songs, and for me it's nice to play cover songs, it's free, it's nice to play your hero's song. "Hurricane" is a Y&T song we did with for the first demo with a band called Virus 7, I like the recording but it didn't end up on the album.
I didn't know those bands, but I was surprised about the singer on "Exciter", Richard Ploughmann sounds pretty amazing!
I formed this band with Bjarne T. Holm, the drummer I had been playing with for 15 years, even in Fate, then I got to know the bass player and he knew this guy called Richard, living in what we call Christiania in Copenhagen, it's this free spirit community (a freetown) where you see a lot of dope and all that, and he just had that power... he wasn't even really a singer, he was more a drummer, but he was also a singer in a Judas Priest cover band, so he performed that pretty cool. Then the challenge was to do our own stuff. We did the Gutrix album and I don't know why, but we had three cover songs on it, we had "Move Over" of Janis Joplin, "Crazy" of Stray Dog, a blues song really, and the Judas Priest. I thought that was a good cover version, so that's why I uploaded it. There will be more of these songs eventually, for people who are interested in my musical life.
It was also interesting to see the photography part on your website. Just the type of pictures, regardless what's on it (some are erotic), but the whole feel, the lightning and all...
I've made so many pictures over the years, I just wanted to present some of them and even when they are sexual, they are more like art pictures without being too pornographic. For me, that's my style. The newer ones I've been doing are similar, a little bit more art orientated.
Have you done other things as well, beside erotic models etc.?
No, I would want to do posters with weird situations you know, I have a lot of ideas, but it takes time and the models and all that to do it. Mostly I've been doing the models and had a lot of complaints from the magazines, because I like the face a lot and they want to see "everything" hehe!
Back to Force Of Evil... how about live plans? You haven't play much yet, why?
So far we have done 4 concerts, probably because there hasn't been an interest in us, we're still a new band and a lot of promoters (and people) haven't even heard of us. 4 concerts is of course not a lot, but it's not like why now go "oh we have to get out there and play". To take a mini van and go somewhere in Germany and play for 60 people is not what we want to do. We want to do something that has more impact, even though in the old days we would gladly go on a Volkswagen and drive to Germany, Holland (of course). Nowadays I don't think I could get the guys into a van and drive 20 hours to Holland, we are a little more comfortable now, but will try to get good gigs, like Sweden Rock, we're looking to do something with Testament maybe, maybe Trouble later in the year. That's probably the ticket for us to tour with other bands, because we are such a new band. We can do small showcases, we are talking about it, also the situation with band, we have full-time jobs.
I would have expected that you would at least have done more local shows..
We have one, haha! We had one in Stockholm, one in Athens, one in Cleveland and one in Copenhagen! (laughter) And out of those 4 concerts we even did a DVD, so that's a little different ;)
You're kind of an usual band ;)
Yeah! The live thing is something... at least the DVD is there hehehe, so people can look at that, haha!
But probably the new album will open a few doors.
Hopefully! Eventually we will get out there hehe!
We've talked about your DVD... how come??? I mean, on the second show you thought you're going to make a DVD?!
On the other hand, 20 years from now it will be an outstanding thing: "wow, they have recorded, with 5 cameras and everything, their second ever show...". Of course it's a little unusual, but we were offered to do it and of course we said yes. It was financially possible because the company was going to shoot Candlemass and Trouble anyway and we were invited to play on the bill as an opener. We also added two different interviews, so it's a bit more than just the concert. It's very honest, very down to earth, getting behind the persons, even drunk or whatever hehehe. Could be interesting for old Mercyful Fate fans, to see me and Michael Denner a little looser, "oh is that how they look nowadays? Shermann lost all his hair! " hehe. I got fed up by it, and we didn't play live much. Live I would love to still have my longer hair, then there is something missing ;)
Michael wouldn't miss it much, he never had such long hair.
No, it's actually longer than before now *shows with his hand on his chest how long*, he's getting back to it, nice change!
You guys didn't change a whole lot though.
To fans it's always a shock and a disappointment when they see you again 10 years later with short hair, like when Metallica cut their hair.. But we are still the same. I was a little depressed when I got 40. I had a Swiss girlfriend and I invited her to New York, very cool, and then she called me and asked what sign I was. And she meant Chinese astrology, it's based on your birth year! And I didn't want her to know I was 40 and I was cheating... I mean, pff, a grown up man sitting there and... haha! Eventually I said it and she said, "are you always like that?" ;) So now I don't have any problems with it anymore. Now I'm proud of it, I don't mind to say I'm 46. As long as we can deliver the music and the quest is still in us, because that's what it takes to do this kind of music. I still have my aggressiveness, so that's maybe why I can still keep up.
We have to wrap it up, is there anything you'd like to add?
I just hope that people will enjoy the new record and see us as a band and not compare it to a Mercyful Fate or King Diamond album, so go and enjoy! Music should be enjoyed!
submitted by Marlies 07.07.2005
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